There's no place like home for generations, whether conveyed in verse, song or grandma's steady hand handed needle point.

Those five words evoked a wistful sense of place, comfort or nostalgia.

These days, thanks to high mortgage rates, rising property taxes, and a simple shortage of habitable structures.

That familiar phrase could, with alarming frequency, be truncated to a far less heartwarming.

There is no home, Hi, I'm John Schwantes, and on this week's show, we'll look at the General Assembly's efforts to ensure that Hoosiers can still realize the American dream of home ownership, or at least have a roof over their heads.

Indiana lawmakers from the statehouse to your house.

Indiana Lawmakers is produced by WFYI in association with Indiana Public Broadcasting Stations.

Additional support is provided by the Indy Chamber, working to unite business and community to maintain a strong economy and quality of life.

Research shows that housing can impact an individual's health, educational opportunities, economic productivity, quality of life, and even mortality.

This data reinforces why having accessible, affordable housing is vital to the health of a community.

But as you may have heard, the U.S., including Indiana, is in the middle of a housing affordability crisis.

Housing costs are rising faster than incomes.

It is estimated that the US housing market has a shortage of 3.7 to 4.9 million units.

Lagging home construction is a major factor in this, but it's not the only impediment to the market.

Homeowners who purchased or refinanced when interest rates were lower aren't moving, so they can keep their less expensive payments.

Real estate companies have increasingly purchased low priced homes for use as rental investments, depleting the number of entry level houses available for individual home buyers, and sale prices have increased for the homes that are available.

Narrowing access for those with less financial means coupled with stagnant wages, rising inflation and higher interest rates.

Securing a house.

The very essence of the American Dream is more difficult now than in years past.

In 2022, the Indiana General Assembly created a task force to analyze the housing shortage.

Some of the recommendations included expanding affordable housing tax credits, increasing permanent housing support for those experiencing homelessness, and investing in social safety net programs.

In 2025, the legislature is addressing affordability for current homeowners through property tax reform policies that provide more financial assistance for developers and prospective homebuyers have also been introduced.

Perhaps the most controversial bill, House Bill 1662, responds to homelessness by prohibiting people from sleeping outside in public spaces.

This legislation reflects the 2024 Grants Pass versus Johnson US Supreme Court decision that upheld a similar ban in several cities on the West Coast.

I am pleased to welcome Republican Representative Doug Miller of Elkhart.

Democratic representative Earl Harris Jr, of East Chicago, and Amy Nelson, executive director of the Fair Housing Center of Central Indiana.

Thank you all for being here to talk about a topic that's probably more relevant to a lot of Hoosiers than just about anything we have talked about this season or will talk about this season.

Let me ask the the word crisis gets thrown around a lot.

We've had an opioid crisis.

We've had a truancy crisis.

We've had literacy crisis among third graders.

Do we have the housing crisis?

Let me start with, the person who has chaired task forces on this issue, who has introduced legislation on this issue, and by way of introduction, also as a homebuilder himself.

So you've seen it from all perspectives.

We have a crisis.

I think you could look at this from a lot of different angles.

2007 really has what has spurred all the discussion in the last 18 years with respect to housing?

I do think we have a crisis in some communities and other communities.

you know, we're nipping away at it.

Certainly.

House Bill 1005 from this session, house Bill 1005 from the 23 session that provides for infrastructure funding for our communities has helped facilitate housing, both single and multifamily, and move those issues forward.

without putting it on the without the General Assembly putting its thumb on the scale and picking a winner or loser in terms of a general contractor.

We've really focused on helping our communities because they know best what they have.

and there's a lot of other groups that are working on the issue.

it it's it's a very broad topic.

It's a very broad group of, of entities that work in this space.

And it does impact every Hoosier.

And it's not just one set of circumstances.

It's cumulative.

And I do want to talk about that first of 2007.

You mentioned that yesterday to me.

And that was the sort of the subprime, collapse of the housing market.

And the reason you cite that, if I'm not mistaken, is because there are, permits for housing development just tanked.

At that point, people wanted to stay, I presume, as far away if you're on the building or the financing side as possible.

Sure.

I mean, we all that.

And we'll talk Indiana specifically, right?

Broadly speaking, Indiana at that point in time was about a 30,000 building permit, state annually.

in 2008, I think we dropped all the way down to just about 7000 permits.

So moving forward, working through that particular, period in, in housing history, it took an immense amount of time and effort to climb out of that deficit.

And even today, we're at on our best day.

We might be up, you know, at 20,000 permits.

So if you just take the last 17 years and look at the amount of volume that was lost, getting product into the marketplace, we are in a deficit.

And that's still a nationwide deficit.

Right.

And now we've got other factors that are, adding to the challenges presented by that, period in our history alone.

Let me get your take, Earl Harris.

Is this a statewide crisis?

Well, it's something we need to pay close attention to.

I agree with the rep, Miller.

It's going to be different in different parts because Indiana is kind of a unique a state where it's pretty diverse.

But one of the things I think we need to do as legislators and as a state is we need to pay attention to these things and do what we can to prevent things from becoming a crisis.

So we're working on that.

it's, you know, buying a house is not the easiest thing as an individual.

I purchased a new house about four years ago, and I went through multiple houses where when I called my realtor and said, hey, check on this house.

It was gone that day.

So even, you know, I live in northwest Indiana, we still have some housing issues there in terms of people being able to buy things.

Let me Nelson, used to deal with this day in, day out.

Let me ask you the C word crisis.

Crisis, particularly for individuals of low to moderate incomes and whether that is being a renter, whether that's wanting to be a homebuyer or, seeking, trying to become, to own a home or a homeowner.

Right now, you're in a housing crisis.

We have escalating prices for both single family as well as, for rentals.

And housing is such, it's it's the main part of our daily living.

If you don't have housing, you don't have access to education.

It determines whether or not you have access to good quality jobs.

The list goes on.

You need housing and individuals are suffering.

We hear from them every single day.

That and this is just getting worse each year that goes on and.

No stats can be collected and thrown around.

And you can make any argument with any set of stats.

But you've done several your organization, several reports give us one stat that backs up the notion that this is a crisis.

25,000 evictions last year in Indianapolis.

That's families being disrupted.

And then at the same time, in our central Indiana region, 20,000 homes now owned by out-of-state investors, homes that were formerly available to people to be able to purchase, that were these were affordable homes that have been taken out of the market, flipped expensive rentals.

Let's talk more about how we got where we are.

If whether it's a crisis or a problem or something serious that we need to focus on.

You certainly, Doug Miller mentioned one example, the subprime housing collapse and crisis and what it did to the housing stock.

But there were some others rising mortgage rates, higher property taxes, I'm guessing you have made the point in the past as a home builder that regulation in terms of, what is it?

I see the industry statistic 25% of the average house price tag is regulation and 40% maybe of apartments.

Multifamily is that.

Those are close to being accurate.

Yes, but still too high.

Right.

our communities, come to us as a general assembly and say we need help, right?

Getting housing into our communities.

And I challenge them back with, well, what what regulations do you have in place that are really unnecessary?

But just stack on the cost to the actual buyer at the end.

They could be zoning related.

So density within subdivisions, they could be architectural standards.

Quite frankly, I think there's some unreasonable standards that still exist.

We've made great strides in that.

it could be just, a simple thing of allowing accessory dwelling units known as mother in law suites, right on existing properties to help fill that gap for families.

And it could be a, a long variety of other reasons.

But traditionally, in the single family realm about 31% of the cost of a new construction is related to rules, regulations and zoning.

Am I recalling ones that you shared an anecdote about the quality of the back, the dirt?

around?

That had to be a certain call.

I remember that was a particular point of frustration for you.

Yeah, we had a community, and one of the donuts that decided, actually in the in the middle of the housing task force that they would, require four inches of existing soil to be removed from any lot and four inches of black dirt put on, and it added a flat $10,000 to the cost of every home.

I mean, if you think about it, that's sort of a that's sort of an arbitrary reason.

Just because a community wants to make sure you have green grass, right?

So there's other ways to approach that solution without going to that extreme.

Fortunately, we were able to have discussions and, you know, move away from that.

But that's just one example.

It's kind of bizarre, but it is one example of what can occur.

Rural Harris what do you who whom do you blame or what factors do you blame for?

What for again, crisis or not.

How do we get here?

Well, I think one of the things that's happening is and I know it's been touched on, and I actually had a bill related to this is these big money companies that are coming in and buying up.

You know, it was maybe two years ago.

I was out of town.

I drove in and and I'm driving in my neighborhood in East Chicago.

These signs that weren't there a week ago are popping up all over the place.

And I, you know, we will buy your house.

I get text messages not only about my house, but I get text messages asking me if I own another house and want to sell it.

So you have these companies that are coming in, they're able to do something that we as individuals can't.

Most of us have to get a mortgage.

Well, if you're a big money company that has deep pockets, I can come in and say, hey, I want to buy your house.

I'm going to pay you ten, $20,000 over asking.

No checking on anything, no repairs.

Just we're going to lock in a date.

You move out, I take possession.

That's impacting housing prices.

It's impacting what people will pay if they turn around and flip the house.

Or if they rent it on both sides, the owner and the renter.

It's also affecting neighborhoods because you're driving up prices.

The AV in neighborhoods, which is impacting people that live there long term.

You know, one of the things I think is a sad thing is if you have a senior couple or senior individual who is on a fixed income, if the property taxes go up, which we know that's already a battle we're facing and they have to move out of their house, well, those people coming in and buying houses impacts that as well.

So I think we need to provide protections and make sure that people from either big money people in state or out of state aren't coming in and buying up all the neighborhoods.

And Amy Nelson, you're the one who brought up that topic a few moments ago that these investors are wielding cash and and promises of, don't touch a thing, don't fix the furnace.

Don't worry about the roof.

We're here.

Where does that stack up on your list of of usual suspects there are contributing to these, to these challenges.

It's something that we've been focusing on at our organization because not only are the these we buy homes for cash type outfits coming in, but the private equity firms have been targeting Indiana all across our state for a long time.

We see it more in Indianapolis just because of the volume of housing units here, but it's happening all across our state.

And they, they, they brag about the fact that they use an algorithm to be able to outbid the regular homebuyer because they can in minutes.

They set up this algorithm that minutes, tell them when a house is available and they're swooping in and making that offer.

Family can't compete with that.

Who is seeing houses on weekends or during evenings.

And and as Harris said, are coming in with a mortgage on top of that.

we also need to remember, too, that coming up, the foreclosure crisis we had a lot of empty homes that have sat there for a while, families that, these homes, some traditional flipping, has been happening.

These homes have been fixed up.

But we need to make sure that people are also able to stay in their homes.

So having sufficient homeowner repair programs, for instance, because most affordable home is the one that you're already in.

And that ensures then that the housing stock keeps up for when it does eventually sell to a hopefully another homebuyer.

Well, we've identified the problem.

We've tried to put, put it in perspective as to where in the many problems and challenges our state faces where it stacks up.

Let's talk solutions.

and that's gets back to the bill you've touched on a moment ago, Doug Miller.

and you've accomplished something rare this session.

it was a priority bill from leadership in your caucus, but also past out of that, out of the chamber, 93 to 0, if I'm not mistaken.

That means you you've got the vote in the guy sitting down the other side of the couch here.

Tell us what you're hoping to accomplish with this bill.

Yeah.

So let's talk about the victory that we had with House Bill 1005 originally.

Right, $75 million to our communities across the state.

This was just this is what was set up a couple of years.

This was set up in 2023.

So 13 communities were able to, qualify for that funding.

They had all their ducks in a row.

If you will meet all the criteria, the loans were made, that particular round of funding put 1922 single family homes.

It will be bringing to the market 1497 multifamily doors coming to the market.

Right.

So that's an unprecedented return when you're looking at a state probably building $20,000 a year, we're going to bring almost 4000 doors to that.

So we that that specific legislation facilitated 20% of the production.

Right.

So help close that gap.

House Bill 1005 from 2025 expands that.

We do a couple of interesting things with it.

Obviously, there's more funding for that.

So that that particular infrastructure fund continues to grows to grow in our communities and give our communities more option.

Beyond that, we've put a additional set of guidelines into it, more criteria to encourage our communities to focus hard on setting aside zoning regulations, architectural regulations, density, criteria, those types of things to get more housing into those communities.

But it keeps that discussion locally.

Also, we've created a provision to allow for third party inspections right now in our communities.

Because of that pull back in during the recession, our communities, some communities across the state are taxed in their building departments, in their zoning departments to do timely inspections.

Obviously, without impacting quality.

We all know time is money, so the goal of that is to allow third party inspectors.

So it could be an architect, could be an engineer, it could be a building.

commissioner or a certified me.

I looked at the bill, still licensed.

To license, right.

They can be hired by the individual that's developing the property to perform the inspections.

The local community issued the permit.

They look at all the inspections, they issue the CFO, but they keep the projects on, on, on a tight timeline, it seems to be wide, wide red, wide regard and respect for that.

Obviously, I want to take some more input, make sure we get that tweak just right so everybody's comfortable.

But I think it's just another way to facilitate getting more product that the communities decide what they need to that market faster.

And you talked about criteria.

Let's let me just make sure everybody listening and watching understand.

So it's doing something that reduces what you would see as unnecessary red tape or regulation It's, it's just broadening that base, encouraging more discussion and encouraging our community to take a realistic look at what they may or may not be doing.

Now that impedes housing coming into their communities.

Harris, you voted for it.

You're one of the 93, you like it?

And is it the answer?

Yeah.

As you pointed out, it was 93 zero.

So all of us Democrats voted for it as well.

And I think, Representative Miller said a couple of things that are very key to that is, you know, we get a lot of times as a legislature look at the problem and look for a solution, of course.

And as he said, there may be some tweaking.

So we'll see how things work out.

We were obviously in agreement with the process moving forward as yes votes, but we need to see how this works out and make sure that it's doing what we want to do.

Hopefully it does and we can all keep going.

If not, we'll do some tweaking to it.

We have to make sure that we as a legislature do what we need to to make things better for the people that live in the state of Indiana.

And I think that really is the bottom line.

And we know housing as you know, Amy's talked about it as we talked about you're talking about people's future, their economic future, how their families advance.

And so housing is a big, massive key element that we need to make sure we're on top of.

Well I mean, Nelson, you didn't have a vote on the floor, but you do have a vote here.

You like that bill?

And if so, how optimistic are you that that really puts a dent in the problem?

We we definitely need, opportunities for more, for more single family multifamily properties to be built.

I will, of course, always, want to make sure that this is safe housing and an emphasis on affordable housing being built as part of it, but it can't be the only thing that is being done.

we've we've mentioned already the impact of these investors when they can come in within an hour and pick up hundreds of homes.

You can't build homes fast enough to compete with that.

So we need more homes being built, more multifamily units.

But it can't be the only thing that we're doing.

When you talk about safe and I, I think people would stipulate, safe.

But is there an inherent concern when you have multifamily or when you have outside inspections, or when you have different building materials?

Is that why you see a bit of a red, blinking light?

In my line of work, we always have to make sure that those regulatory barriers are being removed.

Don't end up that somebody down the road five, five years from now, the roof is falling apart because it was something that was very low barrier that was put in.

We just want to make sure this is a good product that is going to, last the home buyer for a long time.

I've heard your houses all come with a lifetime guarantee.

All right, let's I'll read.

I'll read the fine print later.

Yeah.

Clearly you're.

This is, an evolution.

you created the fund, you and your colleagues a few years back.

It's shown some benefit.

Significant in terms of the dollars you.

This would arguably expand it and push again those incentives to build more doors.

I like that I'm gonna start using that term and sound like I know what I'm talking about.

but this is not the panacea.

It's not the panacea.

Right?

This is everyone working together toward a solution.

Right.

Close that gap.

we always talk about housing safety.

This is all designed around current building codes.

You know, current enforcement.

We want to ensure, we want to ensure safety.

We want to ensure public safety.

we want to ensure that that everything is above, that, that it meets current building code, and that nothing, no corners are cut.

I mean, I, I somewhat take a little bit of challenge to that when that's brought up because we're not working to circumvent any process.

We're working to streamline a process.

And I think that discussion has to go hand in hand.

I'm fully supportive of all housing initiatives.

Right.

And I think that all the partners need to work together.

We all have a different approach.

and it is a broad it's a very broad discussion.

And we all have areas where we have our fields of expertise, expertise, and I'm willing to have those discussions and look forward to them.

because there are more than one solution.

So if this bill goes through and by all accounts it will with the funding, and is it takes effect probably the start of the fiscal year, I'm guessing, what's next?

You have the next are you already thinking the next piece of this, of this housing puzzle is what is it?

Is it to put more funding in the next budget cycle so that it grows even larger?

Or is there some other component that you have in your back pocket?

Fair question.

I'm the type of individual, right?

I've got a lot of thoughts.

Right.

And I and I work with my colleagues developing those thoughts.

I think the key for us is as this, particular bill evolves, that we want to follow up, we want we want data.

That's why I keep referring to the data, right?

We look at how the the components of the legislation impact facilitating getting those doors to the marketplace.

And so, as, as, hopefully we land in a good spot on 1005 for 2025.

And as that gets implemented, we'll track that and then develop a plan, you know, based on the results of of the tweaks that we're currently making.

Well, earlier, as you mentioned a moment ago, the bill that you had sponsored, unfortunately, from your perspective, it didn't pass out of the chamber 93 to nothing, didn't even get a hearing.

But, it mean that you won't bring it back or others won't bring it back.

What?

Why it's so important to deal with these these investors you touched on on already.

But I mean, is that you see that, again, Tennessee is a big word, but is that as much of a bite out of this apple as what Doug Miller is talking about with his bill?

I think it's a big part of it.

You know, Amy said something earlier that they focus a lot on lower income areas.

I mean, my district is not the highest income, as I mentioned, maybe two years ago.

All of a sudden, these signs started popping up around East Chicago.

So it's something that's in my backyard.

And it's not just the state, part of the state where I live in, but it's all over.

I was literally with one of the realtors when my phone went off a text message, and I showed it to him and said, look at this.

This is not the first time I've received this text message asking, do you want to sell your house?

There's things that come in the mail and they make these big offers.

You know, we've had reps that have had stories of people who say, hey, I got a big offer for my house.

I sold it, but now they're going, well, where do I live?

Because if your house was sold at this bigger income, guess what the house is you're going after to live in?

Those prices have gone up as well.

So when you really deal with, again lower income areas like mine, them coming in focuses, it's making that harder for people to get into housing who already have some financial challenges.

And I believe, if I'm not mistaken, and Amy can correct me, some 27,000 houses, I think in Marion County, something like that are owned by these type of investors.

So they're going after houses.

They're making it harder for people to get the American dream of home ownership.

And it's also bleeding into what happens with rentals.

And so the bill I have is basically a ten year buy off where they have to a sell off.

Excuse me, where they have to sell these off.

There are some fines in there.

So if they don't do what they're supposed to do, those funds actually go into a housing purchase down payment fund.

For people who are first time buyers, who would otherwise exactly be funded in part by these call it taxes, call it friends, call it whatever revenue enhancement you.

Want.

And it does not come from people.

It does not come from individuals.

But it comes from the people.

From those.

Companies.

Companies.

Yes, 50%, perhaps a surcharge or fine or fee.

You know, you talk about impoverished areas.

it does seem to your data show me that people of color seem to be affected disproportionately.

even in Marion County, you can map it out and see neighborhoods, whether it's evictions, foreclosures or difficulties securing loans in the in the first place.

we we know now at the federal and state level, DTI certainly is sort of a bad word.

you know, a lot of attempts to dissolve or roll back some of those protections.

you've seen a with the new federal administration just this week, you, there was a contract, I think that's going to end four months early.

with your organization.

How does this complicate things?

on the DTI front, for what arguably is already a vulnerable population in terms of housing insecurity and and potential funding threat for you?

Well, I want to be clear, fair housing work isn't necessarily DTI work.

The Federal Fair Housing Act was passed in April 1968, provides, discrimination, protection from discrimination due to race, color, religion, gender, disability, presence of families with children in the home, and due to gender.

Every single one of us in this room that's watching this broadcast is protected in multiple ways in their housing.

That change, of course, and that does not change or law change, but how the government now is going to enforce and make sure people are being protected appears that that is changing.

Late Thursday night we got word.

We got notice.

Like my fair housing colleagues, all across the country that one of our grants was being terminated.

Grant we had had high performance was actually the the was what we used for the funding to release the reports that we had.

And now that contract has been terminated.

I've been in fair housing since 1997.

I've worked through several different administrations.

That's been Republican and Democrat, and they have come in sometimes with different priorities.

But it hasn't been termination of contracts.

It's been here's our priorities.

You need to adapt.

And we have it isn't that we're not even going to deal with you anymore.

The impact for us, we're the only such organization here in Indiana, is going to be landlord that can't get information on what they're supposed to do, and individuals who are going to be dealing with unscrupulous actors that then, take advantage of them.

Should we, anybody else think that's, I mean, granted, that complicates, but is that in your way of thinking, Earl Harris?

Is that, something that, again, sounds the alarm bell in your mind?

Well, you know, it's interesting because as people, we always hope others are going to do what they're supposed to do.

But the reality is they're not always so we have to have protections in place.

And that's important to do because we know people maybe only want to focus on money.

So how do I do this?

To make money?

And never mind if it damages people.

And when you get into diversity, equity, inclusion it's that term has become hijacked.

And so I hope we can use it for what it's really meant to do.

It actually is merit based.

It's not just giving people an opportunity that don't require or don't, don't fit the need.

Maybe you get the final word.

Looking forward in ten years, if we reconvene this panel, and let's make it 20 years, will this still be an issue for the state, or will it have been resolved because of the things you're trying to do, the things you're trying to do, the things you're trying to do?

If everyone works together, I think we can make a huge dent in it in 20 years.

Absolutely.

What if I said ten?

If you said ten, if this is a work in progress.

Right.

We don't know what the economy's going to do.

You know, I've been through, four major downturns in the economy.

so it's, it's a gamble on the best day.

But I think we have, great opportunities working together to resolve what's currently the housing situation.

So your advice, make sure the mortgage is at least 20 years.

That's not a not a, you know, adjustable rate.

Thank you all for being here for this very important discussion.

Again, my guests have been Republican Representative Doug Miller of Elkhart, Democratic Representative Earl Harris Jr of East Chicago, and Amy Nelson of the Fair Housing Center of Central Indiana.

Although coal remains Indiana's number one source of electricity, renewables are poised to carry an increasing load in the years ahead.

If the General Assembly doesn't pull the plug on, their expansion will illuminate the issue on the next.

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