March 6, 2023

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

RUSSIAN TROOPS CLOSE IN ON THE UKRAINIAN CITY OF BAKHMUT.

HOW WILL THIS AFFECT THE WAR?

I ASK MIKE MARTIN AND HOW ALLIES WILL HELP SECURE A VICTORY.

>>> PLUS, FROM COZYING UP TO PUTIN TO LAUNCHING SPY BALLOONS OVER THE UNITED STATES, TENSIONS BETWEEN BEIJING AND WASHINGTON REACH NEW HIGHS.

MY CONVERSATION WITH SUE, AUTHOR OF THE "KINGDOM OF CHARACTERS" ABOUT BETTER UNDERSTANDING CHINA.

>> WE HAD NO IDEA IT WAS A CORONAVIRUS BUT WHAT WE DID KNOW IF IT WERE A CORONAVIRUS WE HAD SOMETHING OF HELP.

>> A GRIM MARKER, THREE YEARS SINCE THE START OF THE PANDEMIC.

WE TALK TO WALTER ISAAC SON ABOUT DEVELOPING THE GROUND BREAKING MNRA VACCINE.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

COO AND PATRICIA EWAN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

WE TRY TO LIVE IN THE MOMENT.

TO NOT MISS WHAT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA WE BELIEVE TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

MUTUAL OF AMERICA FINANCIAL GROUP.

RETIREMENT SERVICES AND INVESTMENTS.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN NEW YORK.

NEW YORK AND ALLIES ARE WATCHING DEVELOPMENTS VERY CLOSELY IN EASTERN UKRAINE WHERE THE BATTLE FOR BAKHMUT IS RAGING AND RUSSIA MAY BE ON THE VERGE OF A MUCH NEEDED VICTORY.

AS YOU CAN SEE, RUSSIAN TROOPS ARE INCHING CLOSER AS THEY TRY TO ENCIRCLE AND CAPTURE THE CITY.

BUT UKRAINE VOWS TO DEFEND WHAT IS LEFT AND SAYS IT IS STILL IN CONTROL OF A KEY HIGHWAY INTO THE AREA.

SO HOW IMPORTANT IS BAKHMUT?

THE U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY SAYS THAT IT WOULD NOT BE A STRATEGIC SET BACK IF THE UKRAINIANS DECIDE TO REPOSITION WEST OF BAKHMUT ARGUING THE VALUE IS LARGELY SYMBOLIC.

MEANWHILE, IN THE SOUTH, RUSSIAN SHELLING HAS KILLED THREE PEOPLE INCLUDING TWO CHILDREN.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY.

MY NEXT GUEST RETIRED U.S. ADMIRAL MIKE MULLIN SPENT FOUR DECADES SERVING HIS COUNTRY AND THEN HE SERVED AS PRESIDENT OBAMA'S CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF AND JOINING ME LIVE FROM MARYLAND.

ADMIRAL, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

SO, YOU KNOW, THE WORD BAKHMUT HAS BEEN ON EVERYBODY'S LIPS FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.

HOW DO YOU ASSESS IT'S NATURE TO THE PROSECUTION OF THIS WAR?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S -- I BASICALLY AGREE.

I DON'T THINK STRATEGICALLY IN TERMS OF PROGRESS ON THE GROUND THAT IT'S OVERLY SIGNIFICANT BUT I DO THINK FROM BOTH SIDES, ACTUALLY, BOTH UKRAINE AND RUSSIA THAT IT PROVIDES -- IT'S ALMOST SYMBOLIC AND IT BEEN SIX OR SEVEN MONTHS THAT THE UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN FIERCELY DEFENDING BAKHMUT AND IT'S BEEN THAT LONG THE RUSSIANS HAVE BEEN ATTACKING IT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS JUST A FACT IS BECAUSE OF THE EFFORT IN DEFENSE, THE RUSSIANS HAVE EX -- EX PENDED A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF RESOURCES.

THEY LOST THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF SOLDIERS.

THEY'VE LOST AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF EQUIPMENT AND SO WHETHER TACTICALLY IT'S A HUGE GAIN OR LOSS ON THE GROUND, I THINK IN TERMS OF IMPACT OF THE WAR, IT'S HAD A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON WHAT RUSSIA CAN DO AND I THINK IN ITS OWN WAY STARTS TO LIMIT WHAT THEY CAN DO IN OTHER PLACES, FOR INSTANCE, IN THE SOUTH WHICH IS A PLACE YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT.

>> ADMIRAL MULLEN, YOU JUST MENTIONED SOMETHING THAT NATO HAS JUST, JUST CONFIRMED AT LEAST AN OFFICIAL OF NATO IS ACTUALLY TALKING ANONYMOUSLY SAYING THEY BELIEVE RUSSIA HAS LOST PERHAPS FIVE TIMES AS MANY FORCES ON THE GROUND AS UKRAINE DURING THIS BATTLE FOR BAKHMUT.

SO, YOU KNOW, YOU JUST EXPLAINED WHAT THAT MIGHT MEAN FOR RUSSIA TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, SECURE ITSELF IN THE SOUTH.

BUT ALSO LET'S JUST STICK WITH UKRAINE FOR A SECOND BECAUSE YOU'VE ALL DESCRIBED IT AS A PRETTY MUCH KIND OF A DO OR DIE AND CERTAINLY SYMBOLIC.

YOU REMEMBER PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY WENT TO BAKHMUT ON THE EVE OF HIS VISIT TO CONGRESS AND BROUGHT BACK A FLAG THAT HE SAID A SOLDIER FROM BAKHMUT GAVE HIM TO TAKE TO THE UNITED STATES.

SO IT'S HUGELY SYMBOLIC AND THEY'VE LOST A LOT OF PEOPLE.

HOW WILL THAT AFFECT THE MIND SET OF COMMANDERS AND TROOPS IF THEY HAVE TO THEN TURN AROUND AND LAUNCH A COUNTER OFFENSIVE SOMEWHERE ELSE?

>> WELL, I THINK KNOWING WHAT THEY KNOW IN TERMS OF PROGRESS OF THE BATTLE, IT'S A CITY I THINK SOME 70,000 AND REPORTS ARE NOW THERE ARE 4 OR 5,000 LEFT AND ALSO, VIEWING THE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE RUBBLE THAT BAKHMUT HAS BECOME, WHICH I THINK IS WHAT PUTIN IS TRYING TO DO ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO RUIN AS MUCH OF THE COUNTRY AS POSSIBLE, YOU KNOW, IT WILL HAVE ITS AFFECT.

THAT SAID, THOSE LOSSES THAT WE DESCRIBED EARLIER WITH THE RUSSIANS ARE TYPICAL OF THEIR INABILITY TO FIGHT AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS TO YOUR POINT ABOUT THE COUNTER OFFENSIVE, WHEN IT COMES IN THE SPRING, WE WILL FIND THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY MUCH MORE CAPABLE OF WHAT WE CALL COMBINED ARMS TRAINING.

THE COORDINATION OF AIR, ARTILLERY, ARMOR, THEY WILL HAVE MUCH MORE ARMOR AVAILABLE TO THEM IF YOU WILL IN THE BRADLEY THE AND STRIKERS OVER THERE.

I THINK IN THE LONG RUN IT PUTS UKRAINE IN A MUCH BETTER POSITION TO FIGHT TO CONTINUE THE FIGHT AND I -- RUSSIA IS GIVING ME IN INDICATION THAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF DRAMATICALLY CHANGING HOW THEY FIGHT WHILE THEY CONTINUE TO SUSTAIN THESE HUGE LOSSES AND I THINK THAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE COUNTER OFFENSE AS WELL.

>> WE AGAIN HEARD FROM THE HEAD OF THE VOGNER GROUP WHO IS COME -- COMPLAINING BIT EARLY WITH FORCES OF LACK OF AMMUNITION AND SHELLS AND THE LIKE BUT WE ALSO KNOW THAT UKRAINE IS LACKING THAT.

WE KNOW THAT THE E.U.

IS EARMARKING $1 BILLION FOR 155 MILLIMETER ARTILLERY SHELLS BUT HAVEN'T GOT THEM YET AND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS SPRING OFFENSIVE, WHICH TO BE FAIR, IF SPRING IS MARCH 20th, THAT'S JUST THREE WEEKS AWAY, DO YOU THINK THEY'RE READY FOR AN OFFENSIVE TO START THAT SOON?

>> I THINK THE QUESTION IS A GREAT QUESTION BECAUSE IN A WAY, CHRISTIANE, THIS FIGHT HAS EVOLVED INTO A BATTLE OF ATTRITION.

SO BATTLES OF ATTRITION ARE OFTEN TIMES WON BY THE HEALTH OR LACK THEREOF OF THE INDUSTRIAL BASE.

BOTH SIDES ARE ON THIS POTENTIAL SHORTAGE OF IMAGE AND IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THE UKRAINIANS TO BE VERY SELECTIVE ABOUT THE USE OF THE EMISSIONS THEY HAVE BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, THE SUPPLY ISN'T INFINITE.

YOU ALSO HEAR THAT.

SO EVERYONE IS AWARE OF THAT AND CREATING A PRODUCTION LINE, WHICH CAN BE A PROBLEM AS WELL WHICH WILL PRODUCE THE AMMUNITION FOR THE FUTURE FIGHT AND I THINK EVERYBODY WOULD LIKE ONE, WOULD LIKE THIS TO END IMMINENTLY.

SECOND, THERE IS DISCUSSIONS HOW IT ENDS BUT MY SENSE, CHRISTIANE, IS THIS COUNTER OFFENSIVE AND THE RESULTS OF THAT FOR THE REST OF THIS YEAR WILL REALLY SET THE STAGE FOR WHEN THIS ENDS AND I ACTUALLY HOPE IT'S SOONER RATHER THAN LATER SOMETIME LATE THIS YEAR.

>> OF COURSE, SOONER WOULD BENEFIT THE UKRAINIANS BECAUSE THEY ARE LESS NUMEROUS THAN THE RUSSIANS.

PUTIN THINKS HE CAN OUT WAIT THE WEST AND OBVIOUSLY UNITY AND ALL OF THIS IS BEING TESTED, YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW.

I WANT TO ASK YOU A COUPLE OF THINGS TO FOLLOW UP ON WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

IF YOU WERE THE COMMANDER, THE BATTLE ZONE COMMANDER NOW, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY UKRAINE NEEDS IN ORDER TO HAVE A SUCCESSFUL COUNTER OFFENSIVE?

DOES IT NEED TO FOCUS ON AND WHAT EQUIPMENT, TRAINING, YOU KNOW, SOPHISTICATED ARMS SYSTEM DOES IT NEED NOW?

>> THE UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN EXCEPTIONAL IN TRAINING THROUGHOUT THIS FIGHT OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST YEAR AND ACTUALLY BEFORE THAT.

I WOULD ARGUE THAT A GREAT DEAL OF THE TRAINING THEY DID BETWEEN CRIMEA IN 2014 AND 2022 HAS SERVED THEM EXCEPTIONALLY WELL.

THEY CONTINUE TO TRAIN AND THIS COMBINED ARMS TRAINING WILL MAKE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE IN THE FUTURE.

THAT'S WHAT I WOULD EMPHASIZE.

AND THEN BACK THAT UP OBVIOUSLY WITH THE WEAPONS AND THE SYSTEMS THAT THEY NEED.

MANY PEOPLE ARE CHASING THE F-16 ALMOST LIKE IT A SHINING OBJECT AND I THINK EVENTUALLY WE'LL GET TO F-16s FOR THE UKRAINE YIPS -- UKRAINIANS BUT NOT MEANTIME THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY NEED.

THEY NEED ARTILLERY, HIGH MARS, PRECISION GUIDED AMMUNITIONS TO BE ABLE TO STRIKE DEEP AT THE RUSSIANS.

THAT TO ME I THINK WILL MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT HAPPENS OVER THE COURSE OF THE NEXT SIX SEVEN MONTHS.

>> MANY IN NATO SAID THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY NEED WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT FIGHTER JETS.

THE LEOPARD TANK WAS A SHINING OBJECT BEING HELD BACK FOR A LONG TIME AND NOW, THEY ARE GETTING THEM OR TRYING TO AND YOU SAY THEY NEED THAT PROJECTION OF POWER.

WHY DO YOU THINK THEY DON'T NEED AIRCRAFT AND WHAT WE ALSO HAVE HEARD IS THAT SOME UKRAINIANS ARE BEING TRAINED OUTSIDE INCLUDING IN THE UNITED STATES ON SIMULATORS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO FURNISH THEM.

WHY DO YOU THINK YOU DON'T NEED THEM.

>> I DON'T MEAN TO SAY I DON'T THINK THEY NEED THEM.

I THINK THEY WILL EVENTUALLY GET THEM.

YOU MENTIONED THE TRAINING THAT IS BEING REPORTED RIGHT NOW.

THEY HAVE BEEN VERY GOOD AT THIS.

THEY NEED THE AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS.

IF YOU GO BACK TO VERY EARLY IN THE WAR, THE NUMBER OF RUSSIAN AIRCRAFT THAT GOT SHOT DOWN IN THE FIRST COUPLE OF MONTHS WAS REALLY EXTRAORDINARY.

SO THE ABILITY TO IMPACT THE RUSSIAN AIRCRAFT AS WELL AND I RECOGNIZE THAT AT SOME POINT IN TIME WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GO DEEPER BECAUSE THERE ARE RUSSIAN LAUNCHING WEAPONS WHICH IS WHERE WE DON'T WANT TO GO AND I JUST THINK CHRISTIANE THAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LITTLE MORE TIME TO DEVELOP THAT CAPABILITY TO GET THEM TO A POINT AND F-16s WILL BE HANDLE IN AN WAY.

THEY ARE COMING BUT NOT AS FAST AS ZELENSKYY AND THE MILITARY WOULD LIKE.

>> HE BELIEVES THEY'RE COMING AND AS YOU SAY, THE QUESTION IS WHEN.

I WANT TO READ SOMETHING THAT POSTS THE QUESTION DOES THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE WANT AN OUT RIGHT VICTORY FOR UKRAINE.

HE SAID AFTER A YEAR OF WAR WHAT STANDS OUT IS LESS SOLE SAL DIR DAY BETWEEN GAP.

>> ALAN: AIM IS NOT JUST TO PREVENT VICTORY BY AVOID A UKRAINE YIP SUCCESS FOR FEAR OF ESCALATION BY VLADIMIR PUTIN'S REGIME.

YOU'RE STILL PLUGGED IN IN WASHINGTON.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S HERE.

>> WE ALWAYS HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THERE IS POSSIBILITY OF ESCALATION.

IT SEEMS THAT IS MUCH LESS LIKELY THAN IT WAS EVEN AT THIS CONFLICT STARTED A YEAR AGO.

I HAVE NO INDICATION THAT THINK IS WHERE WE ARE, THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE THAT LEVEL OF EQUALITY.

I TAKE THE PRESIDENT, PRESIDENT BIDEN'S VISIT TO UKRAINE THE OTHER DAY AND HOW STRONG HE WAS AND HOW WE'LL HE'S LEAD NATO AND THE RELATIONSHIP IS STRONG.

I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO SEND A MESSAGE RUSSIA CAN'T DO THIS EVER AGAIN AND SUPPORTING THOSE COUNTRIES AND THOSE WHO GREW UP UNDER THE SOVIET EMPIRE DON'T WANT TO GO BACK AND THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ABOUT, REASSURING THAT CAN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

>> EXACTLY SO YOU HAVE THE BALTIC STATES AND POLAND AND THOSE WHO UNDERSTAND THE PERILS OF WHAT YOU SAID AND YET, THE RECENTLY REELECTED PRIME MINISTER OF ESTONIA SAID, YOU KNOW, ONLY A FEW DAYS AGO SHE IS WORRIED THAT THE LONGER THIS GOES ON, THE MORE THE UNITY PHRASE AND THE MORE PERHAPS THERE MIGHT BE SOME KIND OF MOVE TO APPEASE PUTIN.

I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK RIGHT NOW BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LIKE SCHULTZ AND MACK KRON ARE TALKING ABOUT NEGOTIATIONS AND NOW MACRON IS CATEGORIZING THIS HAS TO END IN A VICTORY FOR UKRAINE.

HOW DO YOU ASSESS THAT?

>> FROM A LEADERSHIP STANDPOINT THAT IS THE ANSWER AND LEADERS HAVE COME TOGETHER TO SAY THAT.

I DON'T DISAGREE WITH THE VIEW THE LONGER THIS GOES, THE MORE DIFFICULT THIS BECOMES.

SIX MONTHS AGO WE TALKED ABOUT THE CRACK FOR THIS SPRING AND THERE AND UNITED AND SO THAT'S WHY I THINK WHAT HAPPENS THIS YEAR IS HUGELY CRITICAL.

CLEARLY, THERE ARE LIMITS DOWN THE ROAD BUT I DON'T WANT TO PROJECT APP OUTCOME AT THIS POINT BASED ON WHAT WE THINK MIGHT BE IN THE ALLIANCE OR COALITION SIX MONTHS OR TWO MONTHS FROM NOW.

THAT'S WHY THIS YEAR IS IMPORTANT AND NEED TO GET AS MUCH GEAR AND AMMUNITION AND SUPPORT INTO UKRAINE NOW SO WE DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

IT WILL BE CLEAR.

>> WE KNOW WORLD WAR II ENDED WITH A DEFEAT OF THE AGGRESSOR, THE DEFEAT OF THE NAZIS SO I GUESS YOU'RE SAYING, THOUGH, THAT IN THIS CASE UKRAINE HAS TO WIN ENOUGH IN ORDER TO MAKE THIS A DEFEAT FOR THE OTHER SIDE.

SHOULDN'T BE BROUGHT TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE BEFORE THAT, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?

>> I THINK UKRAINE HAS TO WIN ENOUGH TO BE SEEN AS A WINNER.

I THINK OBVIOUSLY, THERE ARE A LOT OF DISCUSSIONS ABOUT HOW DO YOU CRAFT AND END GAME HERE.

MY OWN VIEW IS OBVIOUSLY AND BAKHMUT IS A GOOD EXAMPLE.

PUTIN BASICALLY IS TURNING THE COUNTRY INTO RUBBLE AND THAT'S WHAT HE WILL CONTINUE TO DO.

THERE WILL BE A TREMENDOUS RECONSTRUCTION BILL THAT COMES DUE QUITE FRANKLY AND I'M HOPING THAT MANY COUNTRIES THROUGHOUT THE WORLD WILL SUPPORT THAT, NOT LEAST OF WHICH WOULD BE IN MY OWN VIEW THE E.U.

AND, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT IN THAT WORLD BUT I WOULD SEE UKRAINE INTO THE E.U.

AS RAPIDLY AS POSSIBLE, WHICH WOULD DO TWO THINGS.

IT WOULD UNDER PIN AN ECONOMIC RECOVERY, LONG TERM, AND SECONDLY, ASSOCIATED WITH THAT WOULD BE SOME KIND OF SECURITY GUARANTEE SO THAT THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

THAT WOULD ALSO REASSURE ALL THOSE OTHER COUNTRIES WHO LIVED UNDER THIS REGIME THAT WE WEREN'T GOING TO LET THAT HAPPEN.

>> SO I WANT TO BROADEN A LITTLE BIT TO TALK ABOUT CHINA AND YOU AS AN ADMIRAL, YOU HAD THAT WHOLE YOU KNOW THAT IDEA, THE PACIFIC AND THE REST OF IT PROBABLY BETTER THAN MANY PEOPLE.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF AND HOW DANGEROUS DO YOU THINK THIS RUSSIA EVEN THOUGH EVERYBODY SAYS THEY SEE NO SIGN OF WEAPONRY FROM CHINA TO RUSSIA?

RUSSIA TEAMING UP WITH IRAN WITH NORTH KOREA, WITH CHINA IF WE WANTED TO COIN ANOTHER PHRASE WE COULD SAY I DON'T KNOW, DO YOU THINK IT'S LIKE AN ACCESS OF EVIL?

>> I'M NOT GOING TO JUMP ON THAT PHRASE.

THIS IS PROBABLY TWO DECADES AGO FOR ME AS SOMEONE POINTED OUT.

I THINK THIS WAS CHINA AND NORTH KOREA AND WE HAD HOPES THAT SOMEHOW CHINA WOULD WALK AWAY A LITTLE BIT FROM NORTH KOREA AND SOMEONE POINTED OUT TO ME, THERE ARE NOT MANY COMMUNIST REGIMES LEFT AND CHINA IS NOT GOING TO WALK FROM ANY OF THEM.

TO ME, THAT SAYS A LOT ABOUT THIS RELATIONSHIP WHICH HISTORICALLY WAS FRAUGHT BUT NOW I THINK IS VERY SOLID AND SIGNIFICANTLY GETTING BETTER.

I'M ALSO, YOU KNOW, STRUCK BY THE FACT THAT WE SHOULD REMEMBER THAT WHEN XI JINPING TOOK OVER IN 2012, HIS FIRST OUT OF COUNTRY VISIT WAS TO RUSSIA.

AND SO IT'S BEEN CONSISTENT SINCE THAT TIME.

IT'S A HUGE STEP IN THE WRONG DIRECTION FOR CHINA.

IT'S DANGEROUS AND THERE IS ENOUGH DISCUSSION TO INDICATE THERE IS INTELLIGENCE WHERE THAT IS BING DISCUSSED AS A POSSIBILITY AND WOULD BE A HUGE MISTAKE FOR XI JINPING.

I THINK XI JINPING AND VLADIMIR PUTIN WILL BE TOGETHER FOR AWHILE.

AT THE END AND HOW ALL THIS WORKS IN THE LONG TERM IS A SERIOUS QUESTION AND EXTENDS QUICKLY TO STABILITY IN THE PACIFIC REGION WITH RESPECT TO TAIJUAN, ANOTHER ENTITY IF YOU WILL THAT IS LOOKING MORE AND MORE TO BE DEMOCRATIC AND THAT'S A VERY -- I DON'T THINK XI JINPING WANTS TO GO TO WAR OVER TAIJUAN BUT I DO THINK IF HE 24I7KS HE'S GOING TO LOSE TAIJUAN, HE WILL.

>> I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU AND YOU ANSWERED THAT QUESTION.

IT'S INTERESTING.

YOU HAVE THESE TWO BIG POWERS, RUSSIA AND CHINA A RAID AGAINST THE UNITED STATES.

AND WE WILL DIG DEEPER WITH OUR NEXT GUEST.

THANK YOU VERY, VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

>>> AS WE DISCUSSED CHINA AND SUPPORT OF RUSSIA DOES MAKE IT A KEY PLAYER BUT OVER THE WEEKEND, PRESIDENT AND GERMAN CHANCELLOR BOTH PLAYED DOWN FEARS THAT BEIJING WOULD SUPPLY LETHAL WEAPONS TO MOSCOW.

URSHELA SAYS SHE SEES QUOTE NO EVIDENCE OF THAT YET TO BE FAIR THE UNITED STATES IS SAYING THE SAME THING CHANCELLOR SCHULTZ INDICATES HE HAS RECEIVED ACTUALLY ASSURANCES FROM CHINA THAT THERE WILL BE NO ARMS DELIVERIES.

IN THE MEANTIME, WASHINGTON AND BEIJING'S RELATIONSHIP WORSENS.

THE UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE BLINKEN'S CANCELLED TRIP TO BEIJING IS EXHIBIT A.

THE WEST FAILS TO UNDERSTAND CHINA.

HER BOOK THE KINGDOM OF CHARACTERS LOOKS AT HOW CHINESE HISTORY CAN BE DEFINED BY ITS LANGUAGE AND HERE IN NEW YORK I'M JOINED LIVE.

WELCOME, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT IS A CONUNDRUM.

CHINA IS A MYSTERY FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO UNDERSTAND HER FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS BUT I WANT TO PICK UP ON SOMETHING YOU SAID RECENTLY.

YOU SAID THE DAYS OF ARMED CHAIR SHIP SCHOLAR ARE OVER IF YOU'RE STUDYING CHINA.

>> STUDYING IT MYSELF IS IMPOSSIBLE TO JUST READ HISTORY AND LITERATURE TO UNDERSTAND THE PACE AND DEGREE OF TRANSFORMATION CHINA IS HEADING TOWARDS AT THIS MOMENT.

SO I FOUND MYSELF HAVING TO ATTEND A DIFFERENT WORKSHOP AND POKEMON MY HEAD INTO DIFFERENT CONVERSATIONS TO UNDERSTAND THE LARGER PICTURE WITH A HISTORICAL UNDERSTANDING OF CHINESE CULTURE AND WHAT IT'S TRYING TO DO IN THE WORLD.

>> SO WHAT DID YOU DISCOVER AND AS WE SAID, YOU HAVE LOOKED AT IT NOT FROM JUST ANOTHER, YOU KNOW, ACADEMICS MILITARY POLITICAL VIEW POINT BUT FROM THIS VIEW POINT OF CULTURE AND ESPECIALLY LANGUAGE, THE KINGDOM OF CHARACTERS, WHAT DID YOU DISCOVER?

>> WELL, WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THAT CHINA HAS BEEN STUDYING THE WEST FAR LONGER THAN IT HAS STUDIED CHINA IN TURN AND ONE OF THE FINDINGS IS HOW THE DEGREE OF DETERMINATION THAT CHINA HAD TO FACE AND ITS PEOPLE HOW ITS PEOPLE ACTUALLY GALVANIZED BEHIND THIS EFFORT.

SO FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF CHINESE LANGUAGE THEY HAD TO JUMP THROUGH SEVERAL HOOPS TO GET ON PAR WITH THE ALPHABET AGE THAT DOMINATES THE TECHNOLOGY WE DING AS THE MOST CRITICAL TODAY.

GLOBAL COMMUNICATIONS FROM TELEGRAPHS TO TYPEWRITERS, HOW DO YOU SEND CHINESE IN A TELEGRAM USING MORRIS CODE OR TYPE CHINESE ON A KEYBOARD THAT'S LABELED BY ALPHABET LETTERS AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, HOW DO YOU GET INTO THE COMPUTER AGE TO GET THE CHINESE INTO THE MACHINE?

EACH OF THESE CRITICAL CHOKING POINTS SHOWED HOW CHINA WAS ABLE TO NOT JUST A STATE BUT HOW MUCH THE PEOPLE WERE VALUE BEGAN -- GALVANIZE AND DEALING WITH THE WEST.

FAILURE IS NOT SOMETHING THAT CHINESE SHY FROM AND EXPERIENCES TO LEARN FROM WHICH IS SOMETHING OVERLOOKED THESE DAYS.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING.

I'M GOING TO -- WELL, LET ME ASK DETAIL IN THE BOOK.

ONE WAS A MONK BUT PEOPLE THAT SAW THE NEED TO MODERNIZE THE LANGUAGE.

TELL ME ABOUT SOME OF THE STORIES YOU DISCOVERED.

>> THIS IS REALLY A PEOPLE'S REVOLUTION BUT REALLY THE SECOND AND THIRD STRING OF HISTORY, THE MANDARIN THAT DISGUISED HIMSELF AS A MONK BECAUSE HE FELT PASSIONATE ABOUT SAVING THE CHINESE LANGUAGE AND A LIBRARIAN ON THE EVE OF THIS INVASION IN THE 1930s WHO IN THE PROCESS OF EVACUATING DID NOT FORGET TO BRING THOUSANDS OF BOOKS WITH HIM BECAUSE IT DID NOT WANT THE CHINESE WRITTEN HERITAGE TO GO TO WASTE OR BE DESTROYED BY THE ENEMY.

THERE IS COMPUTER SCIENTISTS IMPRISONED DURING THE CULTURAL REVOLUTION WHO IN HIS CELL CAME UP WITH A SCHEME AND A PLAN TO ENCODE CHINESE IN THE COMPUTER.

THESE INDIVIDUALS OPERATE WITHIN VERY HARD ENVIRONMENTS AND NOT AWARE CHINESE STATE WAS IN A STRONG POSITION.

BUT NONETHELESS, EACH OF THESE I THINK INDIVIDUAL EFFORTS, WHAT THE CHINESE PEOPLE DID ENABLED THE STATE TO LATER TAKE THE CREDIT FOR AND IMPLEMENT IT ON A GLOBAL SCALE.

>> SO A MOMENT AGO YOU TALK ABOUT EXPERIMENTS WITH NATIONALISM AND FAILURES AND FAILURES WERE LOOKED AT AS LEARNING MOMENTS AND THAT GOT ME THINKING BECAUSE XI JINPING HAS BECOME A MUCH MORE NATIONAL LIST OBSESSED LEADER.

IS BRINGING BACK THIS IDEA OF NATIONALISM WITH A VENGEANCE, WHY HISTORICALLY DO YOU THINK THAT'S HAPPENING NOW?

>> I THINK ONE OF THE VERY CONSISTENT THREATS WE SEE GATHERS STEAM IS AN ANTI WESTERN EXPERIENCE AND THEY LEARNED AND SUFFERED AND SOMEHOW GOT SHORT ENDED -- THEY WERE PUT AT THE RECEIVING END OF THESE INTERNATIONAL GLOBAL POWERS AND SO THE IDEA OF COMING INTO ITS OWN WAS ALWAYS CAST THE MENTALITY OF THE UNDER DOG EVEN THOUGH WE THINK OF CHINA AS ONE OF THE GREATEST SUPER POWERS NOW.

THAT'S VERY MUCH ENGRAINED IN XI JINPING'S WAY OF THINKING WHEN HE CAME TO POWER.

YOU CAN SEE A DISTINCT ROLLBACK OF OPENING UP A MARKEY REFORM OF THE 1980s, IN FACT, A GENERATION THAT GREW UP DURING THE OPENING REFORM ERA.

I THINK IT'S EXPERIENCING THE MOMENT WITH A FAIR DEGREE OF SHOCK AND ALSO I THINK DISILLUSIONMENT.

SO I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO THINK AS WE THINK OF COLD WAR 2.0 AT THE MOMENT AND BRINGING BACK 1950, 1960 MENTALITY, THERE IS A GENERATION WONDERING WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE 21st CENTURY, NOT JUST A 2.0 VERSION OF THE 1960s.

>> WHEN EVERYONE THINKS OF CHINA, THEY'RE THINKING SPANS AND SPREADS SO MUCH DEEPER AND WIDER THAN MANY IN THE WEST AS YOU JUST PUT IT.

YOU KNOW, THEY'RE THINKING OF THE NEXT CENTURY.

BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU ALSO SAID THAT THESE NARRATIVES DEVELOP AND I'M MINDFUL OF THE FACT THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS DEVELOPED A NARRATIVE OF BEING DISRESPECTED OR THE FORMER SOVIET UNION TODAY'S RUSSIA DISRESPECTED RELATIVELY BY THE WEST.

THE SORT OF VICTIM NARRATIVE.

THE FALSE NARRATIVE THAT UKRAINE WAR IS BASED ON, YOU KNOW, NATO'S DANGEROUS EXPANSION THAT WOULD THREATEN RUSSIA AND I'M WONDERING WHETHER YOU SEE THAT NARRATIVE FORMING IN CHINA TODAY AS WHETHER THEY BELIEVE IT OR AS A REASON FOR GETTING STRONGER AND STRONGER AND MORE AND MORE NATIONAL.

>> UNFORTUNATELY, I THINK SINCE THE LAST ADMINISTRATION UNDER TRUMP, THERE IS REASON FOR MANY CHINESE TO BECOME DISILLUSIONED OF THE WESTERN MODEL THAT ASPIRED TO EMULATE IN THE EARLY 1980s AND CERTAINLY, THE VICTIMIZATION NARRATIVE IS ALWAYS HAS A VERY INTELLECTBLE PRESENCE IN THE CHINESE MIND HOWEVER, IN CHINESE NATIONALIST HISTORY, THE IDEA OF VICTIM HOOD WAS NOT OBJECT AND DISEMPOWERING BUT A WAY OF GALVANIZE AND INSPIRING THEMSELVES AND ASPIRING TO BE BETTER AND BE STRONGER BUT ALWAYS CAST IN THE SENSE THAT IN THE WORLD THEY WOULD BE BETTER, THAT THEY WOULD BE BETTER LEADERS THAN THE WEST ONCE THEY DO COME INTO POWER.

I THINK THAT NARRATIVE IS VERY POWERFUL.

IF YOU'RE SPEAKING FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE UNDER DOG IS MUCH MORE USEFUL THAN A NARRATIVE WHERE YOU ONLY ENJOYED PROSPERITY AND POSITIVITY WHICH IS A STORY OF THE WEST BY THIS POINT.

>> SO THEN WHAT DO YOU THINK CHINA ACTUALLY WANTS?

DOES IT WANT TO RIVAL AND SURPASS THE ONLY SUPER POWER THAT'S LEFT RIGHT NOW?

DOES IT WANT TO EQUAL IT?

CHINA IS PLUGGED IN WHEREVER WE LOOK.

IT CONTROLS IN CERTAIN WAYS SUCH HUGE SWATHS OF AFRICA.

IT'S PRESENT IN LATIN AMERICA.

IT'S PRESENT LITERALLY ALL OVER THE PLACE.

IT'S GOT THE BELT AND ROAD SCHEME.

IT'S VERY, VERY ENGRAINED IN SO MUCH OF THE REST OF THE WORLD.

WHAT DOES CHINA WANT?

>> STABILITY, DOMESTIC, POLITICAL STABILITY, ECONOMIC GROWTH.

I'D SAY, LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY.

IT'S A VERY EASY WAY TO UNDERSTAND HOW CHINA IS DIFFERENT FROM THE QUITE.

JUST GEOGRAPHICALLY SPEAKING.

CHINA BORDERS SIX BY SEA AND UNITED STATES PROTECTED BY TWO BODIES OF WATER AND A NEIGHBOR TO THE NORTH AND SOUTH.

CHINA LONG BEFORE IT DEALT WITH THE WEST IT HAD TRADITIONALLY BEEN VERY CONCERNED ABOUT STABILITY ON THE FRONTIERS AND BORDERS SO YOUR ASIAN FRONTIER PARTLY EXPLAINS IS NOW CLOSE ALLIANCE WITH RUSSIA.

IT'S VERY MUCH PART OF ITS EXPERIENCE OF HOW TO STABILIZE ITS INFLUENCE.

>> AND SO HOW SHOULD THE U.S. DEAL WITH CHINA?

THE UNITED STATES AS YOU KNOW PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS SAID WE SEE COMPETITION BUT NOT CONFLICT.

WE KNOW THAT NATO FOR THE FIRST TIME HAS LABELED CHINA A CHALLENGE AND THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THE WHOLE SORT OF STRATEGIC BALANCE AS THEY TRY TO, YOU KNOW, FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO WITH RUSSIA, ET CETERA.

WHAT SHOULD THE UNITED STATES DO?

IT'S TRUE PRESIDENT BIDEN KEPT SOME OF THE MORE HARD LINED POLICIES THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP CAME UP WITH, YOU KNOW, TRADE PROBLEMS AND PROTECTION AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

WHAT SHOULD THEY DO?

>> I THINK FIRST OF ALL, THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE CONVERSATION.

I THINK DIPLOMACY HAS ALL BUT FELL OUT OF THE PICTURE.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO PUT HUMAN BACK INTO THE LOOP.

AND AS WE SEE FROM THE SPY BALLOON INCIDENT, THE SPEED AND PACE AT WHICH IS SPUN INTO AN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC INCIDENT SHOWS THAT THERE IS NOT ENOUGH CONVERSATION AND CHANNELS FOR TALKING THROUGH THINGS TO SLOW DOWN THE REACTION TIME BECAUSE THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ESCALATING THREAT OR PERCEIVED TENSION AND RESPONDING TO ANTICIPATED THREAT.

AND I HOPE THAT WE CAN BUILT ON THE LADDER.

>> SO LOOK, WE -- I ASSUME THEN YOU THINK IT WAS NOT THE BEST THING IN THE WORLD TO DO FOR SECRETARY OF STATE TO CANCEL HIS TRIP.

WHEN THE SPY BALLOON THING WAS GOING ON WE HEARD WE WERE TOLD THAT WHEN DEFENSE SECRETARY LLOYD AUSTIN TRIED TO CONTACT THE DEFENSE THERE HE WAS UNAVAILABLE.

WHERE -- YOU KNOW, SO THEY DIDN'T WANT TO TALK EITHER.

>> WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION ON THAT ONE BUT I WOULD SAY THAT THIS IS AN EXAMPLE HOW WE OVER ESTIMATE WHEN WE THINK ABOUT HOW CHINA HAS ITS FINGER IN EVERY PIE AND A HIGHLY CONTROLLED CENTRALIZED STATE THERE IS A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITHIN.

THE COMMUNICATIONS AND NOW WE'RE IN THE THIRD DAY OR SO OF THE PEOPLE'S NATIONAL PEOPLE'S CONGRESS WE KNOW ONE OF THE CHALLENGES IS TO TRIM DOWN BUREAUCRACY AND STREAM LINE SO CHINA HAS CONSIDERABLE HEADWIND AT HOME.

THAT'S SOMETHING WE FORGET EVEN THOUGH THE UNITED STATES AS WELL HAS A LOT OF PROBLEMS AT HOME TO DEAL WITH BUT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE ADVERSARY AND NEMESIS AND PROJECT THE FEAR INTO SOMETHING THAT'S MORE INVISIBLE THAN WE ARE.

DO YOU THINK THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA ARE ON A COLLISION COURSE OVER TAIJUAN.

YOU MENTIONED WHAT IS SIGNIFICANT TO THE CHINESE IS AMONG OTHER THINGS THE ECONOMY BUT PROJECTED TO BE LESS ROBUST THAN THEY THOUGHT WHILE AT THE SAME TIME THEY ANNOUNCED A MUCH BIGGER DEFENSE BUDGET THAN THE PAST.

YOU JUST HEARD ADMIRAL MULLEN SAYING HE DOESN'T THINK XI JINPING WANTS A WAY OVER THAT BUT IF HE THINKS HE HAS TO AND TAIJUAN IS THREATENED IN HIS VIEW THAT HE MIGHT DO.

>> ACTUALLY, AS FOR THE DEFENSE BUDGET, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NO, MA'AM NIL AND REAL TERMS SO IT COMES UP IF BOTH CHARTS ARE A HINT OF GDP AND CDI IT ACTUALLY COMES OUT TO ABOUT THE SAME NOT JUST A GROWTH ECONOMY.

I WOULD SAY THAT THIS IS SOMETHING AGAIN I WOULD EMPHASIZE WE NEED TO PUT HUMAN BACK AND NEED CONVERSATION IN SOMEWAYS THIS CONFLICT AND RIVALRY, WE'RE JUST SETTLING DOWN I THINK INTO THE TRUE FACE OF COMPETITION.

I THINK IN THIS AGE, WE HAD A PHASE OF MARRIAGE GONE BAD AND WE THINK WE'RE STILL IN THE PERIOD OF BUILDING A CASE AGAINST ONE ANOTHER AND HAVING EXCHANGES BUT I THINK THE TWO SAID WE'LL HAVE TO FIND SOME COMMON GROUND AND OF COURSE, THAT WOULD NOT PREEMPT COMPETITION.

>> SO I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THIS IS HE WOULD SAY THAT WOULDN'T HE BUT THE OUT GOING PROMERE SAID WE SHOULD INSIST ON THE NEW POLICY OF THE ERA OF RESOLVES THE TAIJUAN QUESTION AND ADHERE TO THE 1992 CONSENSUS AND FIRMLY TAKE REST LUTE STEPS TO OPPOSE TAIJUAN INDEPENDENCE AND PROMOTE REUNIFICATION.

WHAT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT OF THAT?

>> THEY HAVE HAD A LONG RELATIONSHIP.

SINCE 1949 OR SINCE '92 AS YOU QUOTED THERE WAS A WAY FOR THEM TO AT LEAST TOLERATE OR WORK TOGETHER OR HAVE SOME KIND OF NON-CONFLICT RELATIONSHIP AND IT'S TRUE THAT ONLY A RECENT YEARS HAS IT ESCALATED AND I HAVE TO SAY FROM THE P PERSPECTIVE, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS IF THERE IS A CONFLICT, THERE IS A WAR.

TAIJUAN WILL SUFFER MORE THAN ANYONE.

WASHINGTON D.C. IS MORE THAN 8,000 MILES AWAY.

BEIJING IS 1,000 MILES AWAY.

FOR TAIJUAN, IT IS TOUGH.

IT IS TOUGH TO HAVE A BIG POWERFUL FRIEND THAT WANTS TO STICK UP FOR YOU AND I THINK THAT'S ALSO AN ISSUE FOR WHETHER IT CAN SAY NO AND MITIGATE AND WHETHER WE STILL HAVE THE 1979 RELATIONS ACT THAT SAYS THE UNITED STATES WILL NOT INTERVENE AND GIVE STRATEGIC AMBIGUITY.

THAT'S WORKED WELL FOR A FEW DECADES AND I THINK WHAT ALL THREE SIDES NEED IS TIME.

>> OKAY.

ONE LAST QUESTION BACK TO WHAT YOU DO, YOU'RE A PROFESSOR OF EAST ASIA LITERATURE AT YALE AND I WANT TO KNOW WHAT DO WE -- WHAT -- IS THERE A BIG READ IN CULTURE.

ARE THERE A LOT OF BOOKS.

IS THERE A LITERARILY CULTURE WE SHOULD KNOW ABOUT?

NOW?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

ABSOLUTELY.

HAVING CHINESE AMONG THE MOST AVID READERS AND LEARNERS IN THE WORLD AND I SAY THAT AND THERE IS A REASON WHY IT HAS THE LARGEST WRIT P HERITAGE, WHICH IS WHY IT WAS PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT WHEN I WROTE CHAR ABOUT TERS IMPORTANT TO DOCUMENT THE HISTORY HOW IMPORTANT IT IS FOR THE WHOLE WRITING SYSTEM INTO MODERN DAY.

>> SO INTERESTING.

PROFESSOR, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> THREE YEARS AGO, AS THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION WAS PREPARING TO DECLARE COVID-19 A PANDEMIC, SCIENTISTS WERE WEEKS INTO DEVELOPING A VACCINE.

THE DOCTOR WAS PART OF A GROUND BREAKING TEAM TO PRODUCE THE MNRA VACCINE FOR MODERNA AND JOINING WALTER ISAACSON TO REFLECT ON THOR LAY DAYS OF THE PANDEMIC AND FUTURE OF THE VACCINE RESEARCH.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE AND DOCTOR, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> SO I THINK IT WAS PROBABLY NEW YEAR'S EVE RIGHT BEFORE THIS VIRUS STARTED SPREADING IN EARLY 2020 WHEN YOU GOT A CALL OR EMAIL SAYING HEY, WE HAVE TO BE AWARE OF THIS THING HAPPENS IN CHINA.

TELL ME HOW YOU SPRANG INTO ACTION IN JANUARY AND FEBRUARY OF 2020.

>> I WAS ACTUALLY AN EMAIL.

DECEMBER 31st 2019 FROM MY THEN BOS BOSS AND THE NEWS ARTICLE SAID 20 PEOPLE HAD BECOME SICK FROM A REPIRATORY VIRUS IN CHINA.

WE DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS A CORONAVIRUS.

IF IT WERE CORONAVIRUS WE HAD SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BE OF HELP WITH THE VACCINE TECHNOLOGY.

I LEFT MY MOM'S HOUSE IN NORTH CAROLINA AND DROVE BACK AND WE ESSENTIALLY JUST GOT TO WORK.

>> HOW DID YOU GET TO WORK.

I KNOW THE CHINESE PUBLISHED SORT OF THE CODING LET US SAY OF THE CORONAVIRUS AND THE SPIKE PROTEIN.

WHAT DID YOU DO ONCE YOU FOUND THAT CODING?

>> RIGHT.

SO THEY PUBLISHED THE SEQUENCE OF THE CORONAVIRUS I BELIEVE JANUARY 10th, 2020 AND AT THAT POINT WHAT YOU CAN DO IS LOOK AT THE SEQUENCE AND SAY OH, LOOK, HERE IS THE PIECE OF THE VIRUS THAT HAS THE SPIKE PROTEIN.

LET US USE THAT PIECE OF THE VIRUS, THAT SPIKE PROTEIN AND ADD THE MUTATIONS NECESSARY TO MAKE IT SPIRAL AND SERVE THAT INSIDE OF A MESSENGER RNA, LIPID AND DELIVER IT.

>> THE MNRA GOES INTO YOUR CELL AND SAYS BUILD PROTEIN.

THAT'S WHAT MNRA HAS DONE FOR A FEW MILLION YEARS I GUESS.

YOU TELL IT TOO BUILD A SPIKE PROTEIN, WHY?

>> THE SPIKE PROTEIN, SEE MY HAND HERE?

>> UH-HUH.

>> IF THIS HAND IS A VIRUS AND THIS IS THE INSIDE, THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT GO AND GRAB ON TO YOUR CELLS INSIDE OF YOUR BODY.

SO IF YOU WANT TO BLOCK AN INFECTION OR IF YOU WANT TO I IMPEDE AN INFECTION, YOU HAVE TO SAY LOOK CELLS, THIS IS WHAT THE SPIKE PROTEIN LOOKS LIKE AND THAT'S WHAT THE MNRA DOES.

IT TEACHES CELLS TO MAKE THE SPIKE PROTEIN AND MAKES ANTIBODIES TO BLOCK IT.

>> YOU'VE BEEN AN EXPERT AT SPIKE PROTEINS AND HOW MNRA CAN CREATE THEM.

TELL ME HOW YOU WORKED WITH THE PEOPLE AT MODERNA AND OTHER PLACES AT NIH TO MAKE THE MAKE THE EXACT VACCINE WE'RE USING.

>> TONS OF PEOPLE WERE INVOLVED.

I WAS AT THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH.

RESEARCHERS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AUSTIN WERE INVOLVED IN ENGINEERING THE S 2 P PORTION OF THE SPIKE PROTEIN.

OVER THE YEARS WE WORKED WITH RESEARCHERS AT UNC CHAPEL HILL AND OBVIOUSLY WORKED WITH MODERNA A COMPANY THAT HAS THE PRO PRY TERRY MESSENGER RNA.

WHEN HAPPENED WHEN THIS VACCINE BEGAN, WE CAME TOGETHER AND SAID WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN STUDYING THIS FOR TOO LONG AND WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT TO DO.

WE GOT OUR BRAINS TOGETHER AND AT THE NIH WE SAID WE'D MAKE A PROTEIN WITH A GOOD IMMUNE RESPONSE AS WE'VE BEEN SHOWING IN MICE AND BE FAST TO MANUFACTURE BECAUSE MODERNA IS GOOD AT MAKING THIS TYPE OF VACCINE.

>> ANOTHER GREAT WOMAN PIONEER IN THIS BIO TECHNOLOGY CAME UP WITH THE CONCEPT OF HOW MNRA COULD WORK IN A HUMAN CELL WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

EXPLAIN HOW YOU BUILT ON HER WORK.

>> RIGHT, THE WORK THAT SHE DID OVER REALLY AN ENTIRE CAREER WHEN SHE WAS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA, SHE DID THE WORK THAT BASICALLY SHOWED HOW WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO USE MESSENGER RNA AND HIDE FROM THE BODY SO YOU CAN PRESENT A PROTEIN LIKE THE SPIKE PROTEIN TO THE BODY AND GET A REALLY GOOD IMMUNE RESPONSE.

THAT WORK THEY PIONEERED OVER THE COURSE OF EVEN 20 YEARS AND ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST DECADE PRIOR TO THE PANDEMIC THAT REALLY ALLOWED FOR US TO BUILD ON AND THAT'S ONE THING ABOUT SCIENCE IS THAT THERE IS NEVER ONE ISOLATED AH HA MOMENT.

EVERYONE'S WORK COMES TOGETHER WITH SOMETHING IMPORTANT LIKE THIS DURING A PANDEMIC SO WE'RE ABLE TO BUILD OFF EACH OTHER'S KNOWLEDGE.

>> IT WAS IN RECORD TIME THE VACCINE WAS DEVELOPED, RIGHT?

>> I THINK 6 SIX DAYS THIS PARTICULAR VACCINE WENT INTO CLINICAL TRIAL FOLLOWING THE RELEASE OF THE SEQUENCE.

>> TELL ME WHAT IT WAS LIKE FOR YOU HAVING HELPED DEVELOP THIS VACCINE WHEN YOU FIRST GOT TO TAKE THE VACCINE.

>> OH, MAN.

WOW.

I HAVEN'T BEEN ASKED THAT QUESTION IN A VERY LONG TIME.

IT WAS A VERY EMOTIONAL MOMENT I THINK FOR ME AND SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE.

I TOOK MY VACCINE AT THE NIH CLINICAL CENTER AND I REMEMBER FEELING RELIEF AND HOPEFUL AGAIN AND IT WAS A TIME I HAVEN'T SEEN AS MANY PEOPLE LINING UP TO GET THEIR VACCINES AND NOT FEELING ISOLATED AT THAT MOMENT.

IT'S JUST -- YEAH I CAN'T EVEN DESCRIBE HOW THANKFUL I AM FOR THAT VACCINE.

>> THERE IS SUCH POLITICALIZATION FOR THAT VACCINE.

DO YOU THINK SCIENTISTS COULD HAVE AND CAN DO A BETTER JOB OF EXPLAINING SCIENCE AND BE MORE OPEN THE WAY THEY EXPLAIN IT?

>> I ABSOLUTELY DO.

WE'RE ALL LEARNING.

I THINK MANY SCIENTISTS INCLUDING MYSELF WERE THRUST INTO THE MEDIA IN THIS MOMENT.

WE BECAME A VOICE FOR OUR WORK.

GENERALLY I'M SPEAKING TO FACULTY OR STUDENTS AT, YOU KNOW, UNIVERIIES LIKE THE ONE I WORK BUT HAVING TO SPEAK TO THE COMMUNITY AND HAVING TO UNDERSTAND AND LISTEN ALSO MORE OVER TO THE COMMUNITY IS A SKILL WE'RE ALL STILL LEARNING AND SO I THINK WITH PRACTICE WE'LL ALL GET THERE.

I ALSO THINK IT WOULDN'T HURT FOR US TO NOT ONLY TALK TO THE COMMUNITY BUT CONTINUE TO TALK TO AND REMIND POLITICS ABOUT OUR DATA AS WELL ON AN ONGOING BASIS, AS WELL.

IT'S ABOUT KEEPING THE LINES OF COMMUNICATION OPEN.

>> WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO COMMUNICATE NOW, NOW THAT THIS -- WE'RE SORT OF GETTING INTO THE NEW FACE AND ABOUT TO GET OUT OF THE EMERGENCY PHASE OF COVID.

WHAT DO YOU THINK SCIENTISTS SHOULD BE COMMUNICATING ABOUT THE NEED FOR VACCINATIONS IN THE FUTURE.

>> ONE THING I'D REALLY LIKE TO SEE MOVING FORWARD IS WE KEEP THE CONVERSATION AROUND VACCINE EDUCATION AND HOW VACCINES CAN REALLY HELP KEEP OUTCOMES OPEN.

IT'S NOT JUST THE COVID-19 VACCINE.

EVERY SINGLE YEAR WE HAVE SEASONAL INFLUENZA SHOTS, THERE IS AN ENTIRE PORTFOLIO OF INFANT VACCINATIONS AND I JUST TOOK MY TDAP BOOSTER THE OTHER DAY.

THERE IS ALWAYS A VAC TEEN PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT AND COACHING THE LINES OF COMMUNICATION OPEN AROUND THEM AND LETTING PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT VACCINES THAT MIGHT BE ON THE HORIZON BEFORE THEY COME OUT IS ALSO VERY IMPORTANT AND IN THIS MOMENT PEOPLE WERE LEARNING ABOUT A VACCINE TECHNOLOGY BEING DEVELOPED IN THEIR FACE AND SO I THINK IT ALLOWED PEOPLE TO MAKE REALTIME DECISIONS ABOUT WHETHER THEY CHOSE TO GET THE VACCINE OR NOT AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

WAKING UP ONE DAY AND BEING CALLED BY YOUR DOCTOR, NOW WE HAVE AN RSV VACCINE, WOULD YOU LIKE TO TAKE IT?

WE NEED TO BE INFORMING PEOPLE IN REALTIME ABOUT THE SCIENCE.

>> WHAT VACCINES SHOULD WE BE LOOKING FORWARD TO, RSV -- >> RSV.

I'M REALLY EXCITED ABOUT IT.

I'M EXCITED ABOUT IT BECAUSE A LOT OF THE WORK THAT WENT INTO DEVELOPING THAT VACCINE ACTUALLY CAME FROM THE LABORATORY AND MY COLLABORATORS, JASON AND THAT WORK ACTUALLY REALLY WAS A STEP STOOL TO THE WORK WE DID WITH CORONAVIRUSES.

I TRUST WHOLE HEARTEDLY IN THE TECHNOLOGY.

RSV, I THINK PROBABLY SOONER THAN LATER WILL HAVE A NEW AND IMPROVED FLU VACCINES THAT WILL START TO COME OUT.

OH, MAN, THERE IS A TON OF VACCINES IN THE PIPELINE.

>> YOU'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN CLINICAL TRIALS.

I WAS PART OF A CLINICAL TRIAL FOR THE MRNA VACCINE MYSELF -- >> REALLY?

THANK YOU.

>> IT WAS SORT OF FUN.

IT FELT LIKE YOU WERE CONTRIBUTING TO SOCIETY.

>> YEAH.

>> A BIT.

CAN YOU TELL PEOPLE WHY THEY SHOULD MAYBE VOLUNTEER TO BE PART OF CLINICAL TRIALS?

>> SO, YOU KNOW, I ACTUALLY DON'T LIKE TO TELL PEOPLE THAT THEY SHOULD VOLUNTEER OR NOT VOLUNTEER FOR CLINICAL TRIALS.

WHAT I DO LIKE TO SAY TO PEOPLE IS THAT THE PARTICIPATION IN CLINICAL TRIALS IS ALWAYS, ALWAYS SOMETHING THAT IS AVAILABLE TO YOU.

IF YOU FIND YOURSELF WANTING TO GIVE BACK, REALLY INTERESTED IN NEW MEDICAL TECHNOLOGIES OR NEW MEDICINES, IF YOU FIND YOURSELF REALLY CONNECTED TO A PARTICULAR DISEASE, YOU CAN GO TO CLINICAL TRIALS.GOV AND SEARCH THAT DISEASE AND SEARCH THAT MEDICAL ELEMENT, SEARCH THAT MEDICINE AND MOST LIKELY, THERE IS A CLINICAL TRIAL SITE NEAR YOU AND YOU CAN PARTICIPATE AND IT IS A GREAT WAY TO GIVE BACK TO SCIENCE AND MEDICINE IF YOU SO FEEL INCLINED.

I ALWAYS LIKE TO REMIND PEOPLE CLINICAL TRIALS ARE CONSENTED.

TO RUN A CLINICAL TRIAL, OBVIOUSLY THERE IS TONS OF REGULATORY HURDLES ONE HAS TO GO THROUGH TO RUN A CLINICAL TRIAL AND ASK ALL THE QUESTIONS YOU WANT.

I LOVE WHEN PEOPLE ASK QUESTIONS BUT YOU'RE RIGHT, YOU KNOW, MYSELF, I STARTED PARTICIPATING IN CLINICAL TRIALS BACK IN GRADUATE SCHOOL OVER TEN YEARS AGO AND AT THIS POINT, I PARTICIPATED IN OVER 100 FOR VARIOUS DIFFERENT REASONS IF I GOT A REALLY GOOD FRIEND IN D.C. WITH SICKLE CELL SO I STARTED TO PARTICIPATE AND DONATE CELLS TO SICKLE CELL PATIENTS.

I DO IT BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE IT'S A WAY FOR ME TO GIVE BACK AND I FEEL LIKE IT ALSO HELPS ME TO BECOME MORE INFORMED ABOUT THE PROCESS AS MY VACCINES GO INTO CLINICAL TRIAL.

>> AS A KID GROWING UP IN NORTH CAROLINA, HOW DID YOU GET INTERESTED IN BIOTECHNOLOGY?

>> OH, MAN.

REALLY, YOU KNOW, BY CHANCE.

I GOT REALLY INTERESTED IN SCIENCE BY DOING AN INTERNSHIP IN A CHEMISTRY LABORATORY IN HIGH SCHOOL.

IT IS A REALLY UNIQUE JOB TO HAVE, RIGHT?

I GET TO COME TO THIS BEAUTIFUL OFFICE EVERY DAY.

I GET TO HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING IN MY LABORATORY EXCITED ABOUT DATA AND I GET TO INFORM VACCINE BREAKTHROUGHS AND MAKE HISTORY AND TALK TO YOU AND TALK TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC AND FOR ME, I WOULD NOT KNOW WHAT ELSE I WOULD WANT TO DO AND THAT BECAME VERY CLEAR TO ME EVEN IN HIGH SCHOOL.

>> I'VE NOTICED WITH THIS REVOLUTION LIFE SCIENCE HAS BEEN LED BY WOMEN BUT VERY FEW PEOPLE OF COLOR, VERY FEW BLACK STUDENTS WHEN I GO AROUND THE BIO CHEMISTRY LABS IN THIS COUNTRY.

WHAT CAN WE DO TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO BECOME PART OF THIS AND MAKE SURE THERE IS A GREATER DIVERSITY IN THE FIELD?

>> THIS QUESTION ALWAYS COMES HOW CAN WE ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO DO MORE AND IT'S REALLY MORE SO HOW CAN WE MAKE OUR ENVIRONMENTS THE LABS, THE UNIVERSITIES AND BIOTECH COMPANIES AND HOSPITALS MORE INCLUSIVE SO THAT EVERYBODY NOT JUST BLACK STUDENTS BUT EVERYONE FEELS LIKE THIS IS A PLACE WHERE I CAN WORK.

AND FOR EVERYONE CAN BE A SCIENTIST, I WENT TO THAT LAB, THAT SUMMER IN HIGH SCHOOL AND I LEFT SAYING WOW THIS IS A PLACE YOU CAN WORK.

I WAS WELCOMED THERE.

I WAS TAUGHT.

THE WAY THAT I SPOKE AS A SOUTHERN BLACK GIRL WAS APPRECIATED AND UNDERSTOOD AND THERE ARE SMALL DETAILS ABOUT INCLUSION THAT WE HAVE TO GET BETTER AT TO INFLUENCE PEOPLE TO TAKE ON ANY TYPE OF JOB OF PARTICULAR SCIENCE.

>> YOU KNOW HOW VIRUSES SPREAD BETTER THAN ANYBODY.

WHAT DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE STUDIES THAT SHOW MASK WEARING MAYBE HAD NO INFLUENCE AT ALL?

LARGE SUGGESTS THAT MASKS WORN WITH LARGE COMMUNITY TRANSMISSION IMPEDE THE SPREAD AND TRANSMISSION OF THE VIRUS THAT CAUSES COVID-19.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT WITH STUDIES, THE WAY YOU ANALYZE DATA, YOUR POPULATION SUBSET, THERE ARE LITTLE SMALL DETAILS THAT CAN CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF THE STUDY BUT AS I SAY TO ANYONE THAT HAS A QUESTION ABOUT MASKS AND HOW THEY ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT MOST LIKELY NOT COME INTO CONTACT WITH THE VIRUS, WHEN IN DOUBT WEAR A MASK.

YOU KNOW, MASKS DON'T CARE WHAT VARIANT IT IS.

THEY'RE GOING TO BLOCK IT WHETHER IT'S OMICRON OR DELTA.

IT'S A FAIL SAFE WAY IN A PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURE THAT'S A PRECAUTION WHEN YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT TRANSMISSION.

>> PART OF IT WOULD INVALVE A UNIVERSAL VACCINE.

EXPLAIN HOW WE CAN CREATE ONE THAT'S UNIVERSAL AND GOES AFTER ANY CORONAVIRUS.

>> I DO HAVE WORK THAT INFORMS UNIVERSAL VACCINE DEVELOPMENT.

THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT APPROACHES.

YOU CAN TAKE THE APPROACH OF THOSE SPIKE PROTEINS GIVING PEOPLE MULTIPLE DIFFERENT TYPES OF SPIKE PROTEINS SO THAT DAY MAKE A BROADER RESPONSE.

THAT'S GENERALLY MORE OR LESS THE TYPE OF APPROACH THAT WE HAVE BEEN INTERESTED IN AND MANY OTHER PEOPLE HAVE BEEN INTERESTED IN.

BUT YOU KNOW I LIKE TO REMIND EVERYONE AS FAR AS UNIVERSAL TECHNOLOGIES VACCINE TECHNOLOGIES ARE CONCERNED IT'S STILL A LONG WAYS OUT AND SO WE AREN'T PROMISING WE'LL HAVE A UNIVERSAL TECHNOLOGY TOMORROW BUT WE'RE ALL WORKING ON IT.

>> HAVING GONE THROUGH THIS THREE YEARS OF COVID, TELL ME WHAT YOU'VE LEARNED ABOUT WHAT SHOULD BE DONE TO IMPROVE EITHER OUR BIO MEDICAL RESEARCH SYSTEM OR EVEN OUR HEALTH SYSTEMS IN AMERICA.

>> SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, ONE THING THAT I LEARNED IS THAT WE HAVE ALL OF THE SMALL TOOLS EMBEDDED IN OUR SYSTEM ALREADY.

THE ONE GOOD THING ABOUT THIS PANDEMIC IS WE HAD NO OPTION BUT FOR EACH OF THE SUBSETS TO COME TOGETHER AND WORK TOGETHER SO, YOU KNOW, YOU SAW THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH WORKING WITH THE CDC AND SAW JUST, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT ORGANIZATIONS COMING TOGETHER.

YOU SAW DOCTORS WORKING WITH SCIENTISTS AND ALL THESE LITTLE PIECES, ALL OF THIS HAS TO BE A VERY CONCERTED AND COLLABORATIVE EFFORT IN ORDER TO GET THE JOB DONE FROM A TO Z.

>> DOCTOR, THANK DOWN SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WORKING TOGETHER IS SO OFTEN THE KEY AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A HISTORIC BLUE DEAL.

IT TOOK OVER 20 YEARS TO REACH BUT THIS WEEKEND, NEARLY 200 COUNTRIES AGREED ON THE FIRST EVER TREATY TO PROTECT THE WORLD'S OCEANS THAT LIE OUTSIDE NATIONAL BOUNDARIES.

THE U.N. HIGH SEAS TREATY WILL PLACE 30% OF THE WORLD'S OCEANS IN PROTECTED AREAS.

A LOT MORE FUNDS TO MARINE CONSERVATION AND SET NEW RULES FOR MINING AT SEA.

ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS SAY THE TREATY WILL GREATLY HELP IN PRESERVING BIO DIVERSITY AND SPEAKING OF PRESERVATION, ARCHAEOLOGISTS FOUND PRESEARCHED SPICES FROM THE WRECK OF A ROYAL SHIP THAT SANK 500 YEARS AGO OFF THE COAST OF SWEDEN'S BALTIC COAST.

NOW, THE SPICES WOULD HAVE BEEN A SYMBOL OF HIGH STATUS AND INCLUDED STRANDS OF SAFFRON, PEPPER CORNS AND CLOVES.

IF YOU ASK ME, SOUNDS LIKE THE BEGINNING OF A WONDERFUL PELIFF.

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.