GEOFF BENNETT: From its embrace# of dubious research about autism,## its skepticism over vaccines, and its wholesale# rejection of the consensus about climate change,## the Trump administration continues to raise# alarm within the scientific community.

Our William Brangham spoke with two prominent# researchers about their new book chronicling what## they argue is a concerted war on science.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: In their new book,## our guests argue that we're living through# a -- quote -- "anti-science superstorm,"## where a concerted group of global actors,# billionaires, leaders of nation-states, and## credentialed experts work to confuse and mislead# the public about basic scientific principles,## particularly around the twin crises of# climate change and pandemic threats.

Their book is called "Science Under# Siege," and its authors are familiar## to "News Hour" viewers.

Dr.

Pete Hegseth# is the dean of the National School of## Tropical Medicine and professor of# virology and microbiology at Baylor## College of Medicine.

And Michael Mann is# presidential distinguished professor in## the Department of Earth and Environmental# Science at the University of Pennsylvania.

Gentlemen, so nice to have you both# here in person at the "News Hour."

I want to ask you both.

In this book, you detail# this, that, I mean, as far back as Galileo,## there have been attacks on scientists and# scientific understanding.

Both of you,## even with that knowledge, describe how you# came into these, your respective fields,## and still were in some way shocked at the# level of vitriol directed against you.

And I wonder if you could just# tell me a little bit about when## you first recognized that that was coming at you.

DR.

MICHAEL E. MANN, Co-Author, "Science#Under Siege: How... It's great to be with you.

And it goes back 2.5 decades for me.

.. published the now well-known hockey stick# curve that demonstrated how unprecedented## the warming of the past century is, and it# implicated human-caused climate change for the## increase in the concentration of carbon# pollution due to fossil fuel burning.

That was a threat to some powerful# vested interests.

And so they focused## a whole lot of firepower on me to try# to discredit me, to intimidate me,## to get me fired from my job.

And I will tell you,# it was sort of like PTSD for me five years ago,## when public health scientists like Peter# and Tony Fauci found themselves under## attack in precisely the same way, the same# tactics, and even some of the same players.

And that's where Peter and I# sort of started to interact.## We became friends.

Ultimately,# that led to this collaboration.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Do you remember the# first time you got a glimpse of this?

DR.

PETER HOTEZ, Co-Author, "Science Under Siege: How... Five Most Powerful Forces#that Threaten Our World": Yes, I m... did my M.D.

and Ph.D.

combined in the# 1980s,.. for my M.D.

Ph.D.

Thesis, which now 40 years# later is showing high levels of protection.

That's what I wanted to do, make low-cost vaccines# for the world in the laboratories, as a laboratory## investigator, pediatric scientist.

And then I# met my wife, Ann, in medical school and graduate## school.

Now we have four kids, including Rachel,# who has autism and intellectual disabilities.

And, if you remember, that was the first# assertion that -- false claims that vaccines## cause autism.

And I saw it was nonsense.# And I said something, ultimately wrote a## book about it.

And that made me public enemy# number one or two with anti-vaccine groups.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The bulk of your book# points fingers very explicitly at these## different actors.

You lump them in.# You call them the different P's here,## plutocrats, petro-states,# propagandists and the press.

And you argue and demonstrate how they are# aligned against very basic principles of science,## that carbon pollution is warming# the planet to a dangerous degree,## that vaccines can and have# saved millions of lives.

Collectively, though, what do all of# those different actors have in common?

DR.

MICHAEL E. MANN: Yes, well,# there's an underlying agenda,## whether it's the plutocrats who fund dark money# organizations that have been attacking cl.. science that have actually been behind the# assault on vaccines, which is interesting,## as well as petro-states, Russia# and Saudi Arabia, in particular.

They don't want a clean energy transition, and# they have done everything they can to block## any global green energy transition.

The United# States right now, unfortunately, has to be## classified under the current administration as# a petro-state as well.

Its policies on energy## and the environment are fundamentally# driven by fossil fuel interests as well.

And then there's the conservative media,# Rupert Murdoch's media empire, FOX News,## Wall Street Journal, that have promoted a lot# of the anti-science in both of these areas, but## also some of the legacy media outlets, Washington# Post, New York Times, that often fall victim to## sort of false framing, what we call performative# neutrality, where anti-science will be placed on## an equal footing with the consensus of the world# scientists on the op-ed pages of these papers.

DR.

PETER HOTEZ: I mean, I think a point of the# book is too often we call it misinformation or## infodemic, like it's random junk out there# on the Internet.

It's not.

It's organized,## it's deliberate, it's politically# motivated, and it's financially motivated.

So, on the vaccine side and the biomedical# sciences, in addition to all the things Michael## just said, you also have a very aggressive health# wellness influencer industry.

The problem is,## people like us are bad for business, because we# say, wait a minute, ivermectin doesn't do anything## for COVID and neither does hydroxychloroquine# and here's why you should get vaccinated.

And for that business model, for# their business model to be successful,## you have got to attack vaccines# and you have to attack people## like Michael and myself and portray us# as cartoon villains or public enemies.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The subtitle of your book is How## to Fight the Five Most Powerful# Forces that Threaten Our World."

One of the things that you argue is that you# all, the members of the scientific community,## need to speak out more overtly.

And you in# this book name names and point fingers very## overtly.

Do you worry, though, that that only# further exacerbates the sense that people think,## oh, science is partisan, that# you guys have an axe to grind?

DR.

MICHAEL E. MANN: You know, back in# the late 1990s, I loved crunching numbers,## looking for patterns in data, writing# computer code to solve problems.

I would have been very happy# if they had just left me alone,## but they didn't because the hockey# stick did become this symbol of## the climate crisis.

They came after it and they# came after me.

As I like to say, I didn't come## to politics.

Politics came to me.

And so we do# think scientists need to step up to the table.

And it doesn't mean getting into# political debates and name-calling,## but it does mean demanding that any sort# of policy-based discussions be premised on## an objective and accurate understanding of# what the science actually has to say.

And,## unfortunately, just having that position, just# being an advocate for objective science now## makes you a public enemy in the climate# sphere or in the public health arena.

DR.

PETER HOTEZ: I mean, look, I mean,# we made a low-cost COVID vaccine,## a recombinant protein COVID vaccine that reached# 100 million people in India and Indonesia.

But as wonderful as that accomplishment was, I# now realize it's not sufficient.

It's necessary,## but not sufficient, because unless we do something# for this very aggressive anti-vaccine movement## that is basically tearing the whole infrastructure# for vaccinating the world's children down,## that's its goal, we're not going to be# successful.

So, really driven to it by necessity.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: The book# is "Science Under Siege."

Peter Hotez, Michael Mann, so# great to see you.

Thank you.

DR.

MICHAEL E. MANN: Thank you.

DR.

PETER HOTEZ: Thank you.

Appreciate it.